Nvidia Speaks about Mantle - They won't support it.

Nvidia won't support Mantle

Nvidia Speaks about Mantle - They won't support it.  

Nvidia finally speaks about Mantle

 

Nvidia has finally spoken about AMDs Mantle openly, saying that they will not support it. This has came to light in MaximumPCMag's latest Podcast, with special guests from Nvidia, Distinguished Engineer Tom Peterson and Senior Director of Engineering Rev Lebaradian. 

They say that Nvidia has had no part in AMD Mantle and will not support it and, from the way they see it, AMD's Mantle API has no "obvious benefits" compared to Direct X.

Here is the full Podcast below, skip to 16.00 to hear what Nvidia have to say about Mantle.

 

 

Remember guys that this is Nvidia speaking here, who have not seen Mantle code or have a real opportunity to assess AMD Mantle. Most of what Nvidia have said should be considered as PR and nothing more.

With that being said Nvidia do have a point, as far as the lower level side of Mantle goes, Direct X 12 will cover that basis to an extent and Nvidia's work in optimizing their Direct X 11 drivers have achieved a reduced CPU overhead, though not to the same extent as AMD's Mantle.

Here are some of the most important quotes from Nvidia regarding Mantle;

 

“We don’t know much about Mantle, we are not part of Mantle. And clearly if they see value there they should go for it. And if they can convince game developers to go for it, go for it. It’s not an Nvidia thing. The key thing is to develop great technologies that deliver benefits to gamers. Now in the case of Mantle it’s not so clear to me that there is a lot of obvious benefits there.”

“It’s possible to pull performance out of DirectX, we’re approving that, and so you can argue that maybe it’s not a good idea to put extra effort into yet another API that does the same thing essentially. Feature wise there is nothing more.”

“DX12 is coming and a lot of the features, the benefits of having a lower level API (the extra calls and stuff), it’s going to be in DX12.”

 

Nvidia Speaks about Mantle - They won't support it.

 

The Future of AMD Mantle

Some of you will remember when we reported on Intel's interest in AMD's Mantle API earlier this month. Even with DX12 coming, Mantle will be launched a full year earlier than DX12, releasing as Mantle 1.0 later this year. This will make all mantle code public, making Nvidia and Intel's support of Mantle only one driver iteration away, if they want to support the API of course.

Mantle is also planned to be ported over to Linux, and by extension SteamOS, meaning that Mantle has a whole extra platform to be used on than Direct X, then again DX 12 will be able to be used on the mobile market, after all Qualcomm is a DX partner now.

At present what Nvidia are saying about Mantle Support is a firm NO! In the future this may change, but I will not put any money on that, as Nvidia said "It's not an Nvidia thing".

Join the Discussion on Nvidia's opinions of Mantle on the OC3D forum.

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Most Recent Comments

27-07-2014, 10:46:45

WYP
Nvidia has finally spoken officially about AMD's Mantle API - They say they see no real benefit to it, and will not support it.

http://www.overclock3d.net/gfx/artic...101407486l.jpg

Read more about Nvidia's opinion of AMD's Mantle hereQuote

27-07-2014, 10:49:50

barnsley
No surprises there. Probably ed about freesync.Quote

27-07-2014, 11:02:02

Dicehunter
I hope mantle improves as time goes on, Would be good to see a new API other than DX Quote

27-07-2014, 11:06:04

SeekaX
Not really news, you can't take charity from your competitor.
This basically means that it doesn't matter if mantle will be a tad better than DX12 or not, it will die because nobody can be arsed to use a second API just to give about 30% of the target audience a small performance boost.Quote

27-07-2014, 11:18:14

Dicehunter
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekaX View Post
Not really news, you can't take charity from your competitor.
This basically means that it doesn't matter if mantle will be a tad better than DX12 or not, it will die because nobody can be arsed to use a second API just to give about 30% of the target audience a small performance boost.
Very true, I'm looking forward to seeing how the studios that signed up for it will do Quote

27-07-2014, 11:38:44

barnsley
I know quite a few EA games announced mantle support. Engine wise Frostbite, CryEngine, and LORE (pretty sure its only used in civ games) all support mantle. Supposedly R.A.G.E will do as well (thats the GTA V engine) although its been a while since I've seen anything fresh about that.

Pretty decent support imo. Kinda seeing it become a niche feature though, much like Nvidia's stuff.Quote

27-07-2014, 11:40:59

Kushiro
Well there is still some hope for Mantle though, but looks pretty dim, as I doubt Intel will be bothered with mantle either at this stage, as it doesnt really benefit them much. Though I really hope it does succeed.Quote

27-07-2014, 11:44:08

Thelosouvlakia
Intel was like :"give mantle pl0x"
AMD was like :"No" (because they knew intel might stood a chance beating the APUs with mantle?)
And Nvidid was like " off I don't need this"
(sorry for the bad language should anyone be offended)Quote

27-07-2014, 11:46:25

Kushiro
err, I think you might be a tad mis-informed, AMD did not deny them access out of fear, besides mantle is mainly supposed to assist with slower CPU, as AMDs IGPUs are quite powerful. Mantle is just a way for AMD to make their budget products more competitive.

Also anyone here had any experience with mantle? I havent had enough time these past couple of months so didnt give it a shot yet.Quote

27-07-2014, 11:50:41

WYP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thelosouvlakia View Post
Intel was like :"give mantle pl0x"
AMD was like :"No" (because they knew intel might stood a chance beating the APUs with mantle?)
And Nvidid was like " off I don't need this"
(sorry for the bad language should anyone be offended)
AMD definitely want Intel to adopt Mantle, even though it will help Intel compete with APUs, APUs win against Intel for gaming (without a discrete GPU) without mantle.

If Intel adopted Mantle, there would be a vastly larger user base for Mantle. Intel do have about 60% of the graphics market with their iGPUs.

AMD didn't want to give out beta code to non-game developers, when Mantle is finished, then Nvidia and Intel can have a look.Quote

27-07-2014, 11:53:41

Thelosouvlakia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie_NS810 View Post
Also anyone here had any experience with mantle? I havent had enough time these past couple of months so didnt give it a shot yet.
My PC specs are Q8200 Quad-Core @2.8Ghx OC
4GB of 800mhz ddr2 ram
HD7770 (mantle enabled)
I could play Battlefield Hardline @1440x900 with a decent framerate on mantle. On DX11 the game was simply unplayableQuote

27-07-2014, 11:55:45

Kushiro
ahh, thanks. Might give mantle a go after I finish reassembling my PC and dunking the 290x's under water again.Quote

27-07-2014, 11:56:22

Zoot
I wouldn't believe anything Nvidia say about Mantle. It's in their interests to rubbish it.

Also treat those benchmark numbers with quite a grain of salt. Nvidia has been quite guilty of deceptive marketing spin in the past.
http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/18...ovided-numbers

AMD isn't innocent either in that respect though.Quote

27-07-2014, 11:58:36

Davidthewin
Don't fall for the marketing

http://puu.sh/atfR7/d291b4551c.png

Or, to see it on the same scale as the nvidia graph

http://puu.sh/atgkY/5abd6a83f6.pngQuote

27-07-2014, 12:03:59

Kushiro
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidthewin View Post
Don't fall for the marketing

http://puu.sh/atfR7/d291b4551c.png

Or, to see it on the same scale as the nvidia graph

http://puu.sh/atgkY/5abd6a83f6.png
Hmm AMD with mantle still losing Quote

27-07-2014, 12:04:55

Davidthewin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie_NS810 View Post
Hmm AMD with mantle still losing
Still losing, but NVidia's graph manipulates the scale to make it seem as though the NVdia bars are twice the size of the AMD bars when in fact it's much closer than they make it out to be.Quote

27-07-2014, 12:08:06

Kushiro
yea, I see where you are coming from, but unfortunately there are always going to be those that will believe every bit of information that is thrown at them by the companies (both AMD and Nvidia), no matter how much evidence you show them it wont change anything. Fanboys/delusional.Quote

27-07-2014, 12:15:35

WYP
Remember guys, as I said in the article. Consider everything Nvidia say as PR, nothing more.

Even looking at the graph, AMD's gains from Mantle are still higher than Nvidia's gains with driver improvement. This is even after any "nvidia manipulation" which could have taken place.

Also remember that Nvidia has never seen any mantle code! They literally cannot judge potential gains, apart from what AMD has in it's BETA BUILD. Nvidia can't say that their competitor has done something good, that looks bad for a company/ to investors.Quote

27-07-2014, 12:18:49

Wraith
In all honesty the only real application I can see for Mantle at present is to extend the XBONE and PS4 shelf life, given their very "Dated" hardware now. So I can see devs using it to try squeeze the most from those systems, as for PC it's all DX12 from here onwards.Quote

27-07-2014, 12:20:01

Davidthewin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraithguard View Post
In all honesty the only real application I can see for Mantle at present is to extend the XBONE and PS4 shelf life, given their very "Dated" hardware now. So I can see devs using it to try squeeze the most from those systems, as for PC it's all DX12 from here onwards.
You don't use mantle on consoles, consoles were already developed in a similar manner to how mantle is supposed to work, the idea of mantle is to bring a similar development style to the PC.Quote

27-07-2014, 12:22:11

Kushiro
Consoles have no need for Mantle o-o The concept of Mantle came from the how the consoles work actually.Quote

27-07-2014, 12:22:45

WYP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraithguard View Post
In all honesty the only real application I can see for Mantle at present is to extend the XBONE and PS4 shelf life, given their very "Dated" hardware now. So I can see devs using it to try squeeze the most from those systems, as for PC it's all DX12 from here onwards.
Mantle is not for consoles, they already had low level APIs, hence why the last gen stuff could have as long of a shelf life as it did.

The idea of mantle came from this.Quote

27-07-2014, 12:23:02

Kaapstad
Some things I have found with Mantle.

Mantle improves minimum FPS in nearly every situation.
The above benefit decreases as the resolution increases.
With modern high end CPUs there is only a small difference in average FPS between Mantle and DX11.
As the resolution increases to 4K, DX11 is actually faster.
Mantle @4K is a VRAM nightmare and on Thief with max settings is unrunable.
Game devs seem to be unable to implement it properly (see the VRAM comment above).

If you are using older spec setups that will run Mantle it is well worth using.

If you are using high spec setups at high resolution (4K) Mantle is best left alone.Quote

27-07-2014, 12:24:57

MadShadow
How can those frame rates even be measured accurately? All of this can be within margin of error.Quote

27-07-2014, 12:25:03

Kushiro
how much ram does the ps4 have? was it 8GB or am I imagining things?Quote

27-07-2014, 12:26:57

Dicehunter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie_NS810 View Post
how much ram does the ps4 have? was it 8GB or am I imagining things?
8GB of GDDR5 where as the XB1 has 8GB DDR3Quote

27-07-2014, 12:28:19

WYP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaapstad View Post
Some things I have found with Mantle.

Mantle improves minimum FPS in nearly every situation.
The above benefit decreases as the resolution increases.
With modern high end CPUs there is only a small difference in average FPS between Mantle and DX11.
As the resolution increases to 4K, DX11 is actually faster.
Mantle @4K is a VRAM nightmare and on Thief with max settings is unrunable.
Game devs seem to be unable to implement it properly (see the VRAM comment above).

If you are using older spec setups that will run Mantle it is well worth using.

If you are using high spec setups at high resolution (4K) Mantle is best left alone.
Very nice observations Kaapstad. It is good to have the opinions from a guy like you who I know has done the testing.

I remember Richard Huddy saying that a Big Mantle driver was coming, so perhaps I could get some testing done myself if that is true. I haven't gamed enough on Mantle yet. Also i think Snipe Elite should be getting Mantle support too.

I really should get round to finishing thief, I actually really enjoyed that game.Quote

27-07-2014, 12:29:09

MadShadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie_NS810 View Post
how much ram does the ps4 have? was it 8GB or am I imagining things?
Yeah 8 GB, but I think that's shared between the CPU and GPU, so nowhere on PC level.Quote

27-07-2014, 12:29:25

Dicehunter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaapstad View Post
Some things I have found with Mantle.

Mantle improves minimum FPS in nearly every situation.
The above benefit decreases as the resolution increases.
With modern high end CPUs there is only a small difference in average FPS between Mantle and DX11.
As the resolution increases to 4K, DX11 is actually faster.
Mantle @4K is a VRAM nightmare and on Thief with max settings is unrunable.
Game devs seem to be unable to implement it properly (see the VRAM comment above).

If you are using older spec setups that will run Mantle it is well worth using.

If you are using high spec setups at high resolution (4K) Mantle is best left alone.
Ever thought of working for the big hardware companies as an official tester ? I think you would do very well Quote

27-07-2014, 12:30:48

Kushiro
Sorry just had an episode of Deja-vu from seeing the above post. I get the feeling that I see the same post somewhere.

Well according to AMD advert Mantle is supposed to be"Revolutionary" hope to see some good results.Quote

27-07-2014, 12:37:18

Dicehunter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie_NS810 View Post
Sorry just had an episode of Deja-vu from seeing the above post. I get the feeling that I see the same post somewhere.

Well according to AMD advert Mantle is supposed to be"Revolutionary" hope to see some good results.
You have probably seen me asking Kaap somewhere "why aren't you an official tester, Become the tester so you have ALL the stuff" Quote

27-07-2014, 12:39:04

barnsley
Mantle is best suited for low level cpus. It really helps my friend's fx 4300.Quote

27-07-2014, 12:43:47

Kushiro
Well that has been made rather clear I think haha. Also thanks for the help with the monitor DicehunterQuote

27-07-2014, 12:49:51

Dicehunter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie_NS810 View Post
Well that has been made rather clear I think haha. Also thanks for the help with the monitor Dicehunter
Your welcome Quote

27-07-2014, 12:54:03

SeekaX
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie_NS810 View Post
Sorry just had an episode of Deja-vu from seeing the above post. I get the feeling that I see the same post somewhere.

Well according to AMD advert Mantle is supposed to be"Revolutionary" hope to see some good results.
So much for marketing bull.Quote
Reply
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